Episode 6: Breaking into Sales: From Student to Startup Success with Lucas Hale

In this episode of 'Your Future on Meritt' podcast, CEO and co-founder Will Koning welcomes Lucas Hale, a former student and sales professional. The discussion focuses on Lucas's unconventional journey from studying marketing and strength conditioning to successfully transitioning into sales. They explore the challenges and rewards of a sales career, the grit and resilience required to succeed, and the importance of being customer-obsessed. Lucas shares valuable advice for those considering a sales career and emphasises the significance of networking and continuous learning. The episode also highlights Meritt's new personality sales assessment tool designed to help aspiring salespeople improve their skills and chances of landing a job.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:48 Lucas Hale's Journey into Sales
01:56 Marketing vs. Sales: A Career Perspective
02:46 The Challenges and Rewards of Sales
04:19 Dealing with Rejection and Building Resilience
07:22 The Importance of Customer Obsession
08:52 Advice for Aspiring Sales Professionals
12:47 The Value of Grit and Perseverance
16:23 Final Thoughts and Farewell
16:42 Networking and Career Growth

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Your future on meritt. Podcast with Lucas Hale.
[00:00:00] 
Will Koning: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Your future on meritt podcast. My name is Will Koning. I am the CEO and co founder of meritt. We're joined today by one of my very first students at my previous academy, Lucas Hale. Lucas has been working with me over the last four years. initially joined me as a student at SaaSLeads and has worked all his way through working at some of the most exciting tech startups here in the UK.
Welcome, Lucas. How are you doing today?
Lucas Hale: Good morning Will, I'm good. I'm good. Nice to
be here. 
Will Koning: Thanks so much for joining us. I appreciate it's a nice and early one for us. Um, so yeah, look, we love to just get this podcast started, it's all about how we break into sales and what's going on in the sales space. I was wondering Lucas, how did you get into sales and how did you convince your parents this was a great, great career as opposed to doing something more sensible, like being a [00:01:00] lawyer or a doctor or a accountant... 
Lucas Hale: Yeah. Uh, well did try a few other things first. I, uh, I did marketing at university for my undergrad degree, and then I studied for a few years doing strength and conditioning, which is, uh, like gym training, personal training for athletes. And while I did that, I worked full time at a sports center at Bath University, which was like quite a challenge doing both at the same time.
And then I kind of got to the end of that, realized I didn't want to go into that. And I'll be honest, I can't remember why I applied for a sales job. I saw the salary was good and I just thought, sod it, I'll just apply. And then I started getting interviews in for SDR jobs and other sales roles, and it was quite good. Like I'm dyslexic. So, uh, you know, I did well at uni, but anytime I had to speak, I did really, really well at uni. So I was like, you know, sounds like speaking and talking for living is probably, probably a good shout.
Will Koning: Yeah. No, fair enough. Fair enough. what was it when you were going from like marketing, say into, [00:02:00] into sales, you know, like typically most people go from sales into marketing as an example. What was that kind of like journey? Like,
Lucas Hale: Yeah, it was interesting. Cause. it's very different, but it's also very similar. I think about like marketing can be seen as doing sales at like a mass scale. So you're talking about, how do you have an individual conversation with a thousand people? And that's very much the way it's going in the future with AI and those kinds of technologies where marketing can do that.
And that was a key thing in my, in my undergrad degree. And then, you know, coming into sales, it's just, well, how do we do that? But just to an individual person and have that conversation with that person, rather than trying to create the same experience for a thousand or a hundred thousand
people. 
Will Koning: That's interesting. What would you say to someone, you know, now, now looking back, you've done this journey. What would you say to someone that's maybe done a marketing degree considering a sales career and they're on the fence? what would you say for and against? 
Lucas Hale: Yeah, definitely. You know, [00:03:00] I'll say, I say with "against" it's demanding, it's the very different demand. You are there physically, personally in front of someone and that is scary and is hard because you have that very personal rejection, every single time there is a there's a hell of a lot of it for the "for" it is incredibly rewarding, especially if you're working at a good tech company and you're doing cool things like seeing and having that direct engagement with a product or service that is having a positive benefit on someone and it's helping their business or helping them personally. That is a hundred times more rewarding than you'd get from, uh, like, you know, doing a nice marketing campaign or a cool ad.
Will Koning: Nice. So on one hand, the cons are that it's a lot harder work than marketing or what you released expecting it to be. Um, it sounds like you need to be a lot more resilient, but on the other hand, it's significantly more rewarding working with, with individuals. Is that, is that right?
Lucas Hale: Absolutely, and [00:04:00] financially as well. I'm definitely in a financially better position than I would be if I was still in marketing.
Will Koning: Absolutely. I think that's something that we forget on this podcast that, you know, in sales, we're here to make money, right? Like we're here to solve a pain, deliver value for our customers. In exchange for money. Right. And I think that's something 
Lucas Hale: I think it was something you said. Yeah, you said to me a couple years ago when I was first starting that, you know, you go through that suck and you have to maintain the resilience and the keeping up with calling and the rejection and putting loads of work for a deal just to have it fall flat on its face because you get rewarded well.
Will Koning: Explain "suck" in more detail. What do you mean by that? 
Lucas Hale: Everything from spending three hours cold calling being told to fuck off being screamed at down the phone. Having people hang up on you almost more demoralizing is not even having anyone pick up all day, or for a week straight
because you don't even have a chance to attempt to speak to someone or you know I've worked on some big enterprise deals that you spend weeks and [00:05:00] months building and going through the awful processes they have just to be cut down because you know the pricing was wrong or there was some stupid feature that we didn't have for whatever reason and that is really awful.
Will Koning: Yeah, and that's it. I think we call it "the suck". I also call it like the "pit of despair" and every SDR goes through it. And if you're an SDR listening to this right now and you're thinking, Oh my God, is it worth it and you're going through this, yeah, "pit of despair." Um, it's entirely normal. I don't know a single SDR that doesn't go through this.
At least once, most go through it on a weekly basis.
Lucas Hale: Hourly basis, I swear,
Will Koning: but it's, it's learning to, to deal with it because all you have to do is pick up the phone and that one time and it can change, it can change it. So just doing that one more rep and you, and you'll get through it. But yeah,
Lucas Hale: Yeah. That, that, that's the advice. It's like, just treat every day as, as its own. And then remember why you are doing it for the money, for [00:06:00] the reward, for the crew you're gonna get. And if you know that, you know, from whenever you start in the morning, whenever you finish, you've done the work, you've made the calls, you've sent the emails, you've connected with 'em, and you've done a good job. You will get there and you will be successful.
Will Koning: Indeed. you've just talked about getting the career that you wanted. Has it?
Lucas Hale: I think so. I'm pretty sure I do. me personally. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I'm like, it's been going great so far.
Will Koning: Yeah.
Lucas Hale: Couple of years in, but I can't believe where I am at now, versus where I was. You know, working shifts in a sports center a couple of years back to now doing what I'm doing, having, you know, sold and been an SDR to major enterprise companies.
I've booked meetings with Amazon and Fox Entertainment and Arsenal Football Club. It's like, it was so fun. now on everything else and what I've been through in the in the middle. It's
amazing. 
Will Koning: No, absolutely. I've obviously been very [00:07:00] close to, to that journey, watching you go from strength to strength to strength. And what's so interesting is, you know, you're obviously in the AI recruitment space, um, with us over at meritt. Um, and you're not just doing sales, right? Like, it's obviously opened up a lot of doors to you.
What would you say, from your perspective, are those doors that's opened up?
Yeah Right now it's opened up a whole host of doors as an SDR you get very good at learning your customer, learning how to talk to them and understanding what those needs and pains and benefits are because if you haven't mastered that you're not going to be a very good SDR, but that is also the key skills that a product manager has or a marketing manager has and a customer success manager has. It's all about making sure you know what they want and being able to convince them and work with them to deliver that value.
A hundred percent. Right. It's, it's like the same thing when we're talking about building startups and, and it's all about being customer obsessed. Right? And the best [00:08:00] salespeople, the best SDRs, they are obsessed with their customers. They, they know intimately the pains that they have, the value that you can provide to them.
So they can really hone in on that perfect, what they call "Ideal Customer Profile". And that's actually so funny. Now we're doing all this stuff with product and marketing and consulting other companies to make, make the cash come in as well. It's the same everywhere, right? Be customer obsessed. And I think that's just one key skill that absolutely, um, is it a skill even, I don't know, but like allows us 
Lucas Hale: It's a skill. It's something you can practice.
Will Koning: Practice.
Yeah,
it is a practice, isn't it? You know, and, and we have to, we have to check it ourselves right at times, right? Like, are we acting in the best interests of our customers and candidates? And if we, as long as we keep doing that, you will start to see real value come through as opposed to like doing things for the spreadsheet or doing things for the revenue, you know, So look just want to sort of slightly change the tack a bit.
Um, you're obviously now working in the AI recruitment space with us over over at meritt, and we're [00:09:00] hiring for a lot of salespeople like, what are you seeing on the market right now? That's interesting when it comes to hiring for salespeople and any advice you'd have for anyone looking to get a job right now.
Lucas Hale: That's a good question. In terms of the market, there is a lot, there's a, there's a whole variety of jobs. One of the things that I've, I've given advice to other people and I, I give to people: it will suck trying to find a job, but like you only need to find one. That's it. And trying to find yourself the right company in the right places is an okay journey to go through.
but also then think about what are they looking for? if you think about what a good SDR is of being customer obsessed, then think about your target audience as a customer. So just tailor that CV. Like there is experience you have and everything you've done previously if you've waited tables or you've worked in a call center or something like that those skills really make sure to highlight in your CV and if you have the opportunity through something like meritt to record a video and submit that then that's [00:10:00] fantastic as well but you have experience that is relevant and will be interesting to someone to really make sure to highlight it and show it. See a lot of CVs where people like they've done something cool or something interesting. They're part of a sports team or they had a call center job. That's amazing experience. They both suck. All that knowledge and time transfers over so
well. 
Will Koning: No, definitely. And I think so there's, there's quite a lot there to unpack. So on firsthand, you're saying, Hey, look, you're essentially going for one job. You're not trying to get 10 jobs, right? So really put in the effort to get that one job. As opposed, so I'm guessing don't click easy apply on LinkedIn.
Right?
Lucas Hale: Yeah.
Will Koning: Yeah. Um,
Lucas Hale: Yeah. Or at least like, just think about what you're going to be a bit strategic about it.
Will Koning: Yeah, be strategic. And I think so for anyone, there's so much you can do really, isn't there? You can obviously use like videos using the meritt platform, you can obviously tailor your CV to be specific to that job you're applying for. You can make sure your cover letter [00:11:00] is well written, not chat GPT, please, everybody.
It's fairly obvious. Um, all those different things, connecting with the decision makers on LinkedIn, these are things that you should and could be doing. to increase your chances of success. the second piece is, you know, like you say, using technologies like meritt, to obviously increase your chances of success using videos.
And what was the third one again? Remind us?
Lucas Hale: Bring experience from other jobs.
Will Koning: Absolutely right. 
Lucas Hale: So like there are so many skills that apply.
Will Koning: And I'd say the reason why you're so good is because you've like, you had that foundational learnings in marketing. Right? You knew that. Yeah.
[00:12:00] 
 
Lucas Hale: And another one that I. I worked three years at a sports centre, but I was doing my master's degree at the same time. But I've done a 14 hour shift on a Sunday into a week of late shifts into weekends of lectures. Okay, that is not a direct applicable skill in itself, but that experience of just sitting in that just terrible "pit of despair", as
you call it, and then grinding through and getting to that end is a, is something that okay, isn't necessarily a skill, but it's a trait that is makes a good salesperson.
Will Koning: Well, what you're talking about there is "Grit", right? Yeah. And I do think that gets lost on, you know, the incoming generation. And maybe I'm just sounding old now, but, the one thing that just [00:13:00] seems to be lacking is this you know, power and perseverance to achieve long term goals.
I think there's a lot of people coming into this, coming from a degree not realising how much work it is how you have to show up every day at work to be there. Just being there, just grinding through these problems with a smile on your face. Um, you know, it's such an important trait that I just think gets, gets overlooked.
Lucas Hale: definitely I think it's a trait that gets overlooked by hiring managers at times too
Will Koning: Have you got any 
Lucas Hale: if you have someone who.. I'd take someone who is willing to do that, over someone with all the qualifications and experience who didn't have that.
Will Koning: It's So 
Lucas Hale: Every day of the week. Yeah. 
Will Koning: I'm currently consulting for, a company that is a low level transactional sales. So it doesn't necessarily require someone with a big brain on them, frankly. And, do you know what's so interesting? They're not Oxford educated, they are just good people on here.
Um, they come from maybe the not so greater side of life. but their work ethic [00:14:00] is, is phenomenal. And I'm so used to working with grads from like, you know, Red Brick Universities or whatever. And it's so interesting, it's like, they do the reps, they're not scared of doing 250 calls a day.
And then you've got the ones that are slightly more educated, and they're just like, Oh, I, I have to do, what, 50 calls a day? And they, they struggle doing that? And it's like, oh my god, which would you rather choose as a manager?
Lucas Hale: Yeah, the experience then counts for nothing. Like I'm, what a couple of years out of my degree. I, yeah, I use it a lot in foundational, but really not, not a huge
amount. The skills I learned there were more about like being critical, like critical thinking. And that's great. I mean, I went to *******, which is one of the worst universities in the country.
Probably, maybe cut that out. Um, it's not a good university.
Will Koning: I didn't go to university, don't worry about it.
Lucas Hale: Yeah, I know. I got a couple of Cs at A levels. I didn't do particularly well, but what I learned wasn't the most useful [00:15:00] because they're peripheral things you learn and you can pick up and you can bring and just fucking go out and do it.
Will Koning: Yeah, there's so much, I think, I think Obama talks about people that can get shit done. That is one of the most valuable things right for anyone that's listening to this wondering what they need to do to be successful. You don't have to have a massive degree. You don't have to do anything.
You just have to want it more than someone else. And you have to be willing to just grind at it. I say so my training. I'm doing some training at the moment is like, I will be more successful than you. Because I want it more than you. Not because I'm smarter, not because I'm this or anything, that's irrelevant.
It's I just want it more than you. I'm prepared to get up every single time I get knocked down. You know?
Lucas Hale: Yeah. And there's things like, I've noticed this with you and the same with other people and I'm like, you will sit in the evening, you'll listen to podcasts, you'll read books on, I mean, you've got a whole host of books behind you. Like, do you have to understand it all? No. I mean, I'm dyslexic as hell, but I still will sit and read books slowly, even though I struggle, because I know that it will make me
better. [00:16:00] 
Will Koning: I find, I find it so much better, right? It's so much better. I'd rather watch like a YouTube video about, some crazy shit these AI guys are doing. And, I do that every evening as opposed to watching, I don't know, Love Island.I'm now doing talks about AI in HSBC. I, you know, the reality is, is I just studied it more than someone else sitting here in the, in the evening. It's amazing what these opportunities can have you just by being curious. 
Lucas Hale: We're coming to the end of this very short early morning podcast.
Will Koning: Thank you so much for joining us, Lucas. Um, alright two more questions for you!what are the three lessons you give to young Lucas to starting a sales career today that you would part onto him?
Lucas Hale: Um, just keep going, definitely.focus on, keep learning. Like, I know that's, I've already said it. And, like, don't be afraid to keep networking and keeping in contact with people. I'm not necessarily the best at that, like, after I leave the job or somewhere. I'm getting better at it now. But your network is, is everything in itself.
Will Koning: 100 percent. Your network is your net worth. It's it's I'm sure you've seen it with me where it's like, oh, I know someone
Lucas Hale: [00:17:00] that's you.
Will Koning: And that 
Lucas Hale: yeah, it's become very 
Will Koning: huh? It's such an important one that hasn't really been discussed on here. But yeah, I think that's where SDRs go wrong a little bit. Is that they can, they can do all
these, um, you know, it's like, Oh, I've just got to do the motions of running a sequence, running a cadence, doing the calls, doing the emails. But no, no, get out there, get in front of people, go to events, build connections, make friends. Like don't expect 
Lucas Hale: and also 
Will Koning: And like this crazy stuff just happens.
Lucas Hale: You can also speak like other if you're an SDR now and you're 20 or 21 then connect with other SDRs because in five six seven years time if you're around a bunch of other good SDRs chances are you'll all be good AEs or
managers, and then your network that was a whole bunch of SDRs is now a whole bunch of really really helpful heads of sales.
Will Koning: So true. It's so true. I say one of my, one of my friends that was in sales got into RevOps. she then did some work for us over at Eola. If you remember, she did the dashboards. I was looking for a new CRM [00:18:00] three years later, like now, she basically introduced me to the CEO of this company.
Um, he introduced me to a company that got us a 45, 000 pound deal. And then it looks like one of the SDRs that we work with is now going to be working for said company, which is another good bit of cash for meritt and it's like, you could not join those dots going forward. Could you? Hell no. 
Lucas Hale: and everyone was in different positions and worse positions when the connections were made.
Will Koning: Yeah, absolutely. And then the second thing then Lucas, what's your favorite quote and why?
Lucas Hale: Yeah, I had a bit of thought about this. Um, the only thing, the main one that comes to mind is from a kid's cartoon. I can't actually remember what cartoon. And it's, I can't remember exactly, but it's like "Sucking at something is the first step to being sort of good at it."
Will Koning: That is true.
Lucas Hale: And that is something that I like, I'm, I know that I personally myself am quite good at is just, being shit at things. [00:19:00] I'm willing just to suck at things and just to keep going until i'm actually good at it, but you do have to suck at it 
first.
Will Koning: Good enough is the enemy of perfection. Um, I can hear our executive producer in the background, Jono again. Getting angry. This has been brought up twice now in the last two podcasts, being the perfectionist that he is good. Very good. Okay. And the last few minutes, Lucas, as we do, yeah, you get to sell yourself.
Tell us something. What can we do? How can we connect with you? How can we help you sell yourself?
Lucas Hale: Yeah, um connect with me on linkedin i'm trying to share and help people out. You know If you would want to drop me a message and have me review your CV look at a load, feel free to send it over review your videos or or talk about how you might be able to have a career, send over any of that information.
I'm more than happy to talk about it Uh, my linkedin i'm sure will be linked somewhere
for you to come and get me. 
 
Lucas Hale: You Yeah, definitely, definitely connect with Lucas, guys. If you are looking for any kind of help or experience, um, looking to break into the sales role or SDR [00:20:00] roles, um, we are actually working on a bunch of roles right now. Um, whether you listen to this as it's being recorded. 
Will Koning: We're working on a bunch of roles in the future too. Um, but yeah, so thanks so much, Lucas. Um, a shameless plug for meritt whilst we're, whilst we're filming. Um, meritt has just launched its brand new personality sales assessment. This is free to do and it's really amazing. All you do is film like a three minute video.
And in that video, um, you answer a few questions and essentially our brand new AI takes all of that and gives you your sales personality profile assessment. It shows you, um, the big five key personality traits. It shows you how you communicate, what you're good at, what you're not good at, and that should help you understand how you need to position yourself in interviews, how you communicate, how you need to be coached and will make you better at being a salesperson or at least increase your chances of getting a job.
So check it out now. Only takes a couple of minutes. It's free to do. Um, and remember everybody your future, it's on meritt [00:21:00] Thanks so much for joining.
 

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